Jim Lee's Universe
This article originally appeared as a two-part series on ZAM on Dec. 23 and Dec. 26, 2008.
This interview with Jim Lee includes questions asked by Darryl "Togikagi" Gangloff.
Sony Online Entertainment's, DC Universe Online (DCUO) is one of the most anticipated MMOs in development, due to both the intellectual property and the big names behind the title. Jim Lee is one of those names that has comic book fans quivering with anticipation. Recently, Togikagi and I had the opportunity to chat with Jim in person about DCUO. Special thanks go out to Jim for chatting with us when he was a tad under the weather.
Tamat : Hey Jim, I can’t tell you how much we appreciate you taking the time to talk with us about DC Universe Online; not to mention the fact that you’ve taken the time to do so while you have the flu!
Jim Lee : Hey no problem, it’s my pleasure!
Togikagi : I just want to say that I’m a huge fan. My father owned a comic book store when I was growing up so this is a sincere honor.
Jim Lee : Awesome! I appreciate that.
Togikagi : You've worked on numerous comic books throughout the years, from your run at Marvel, to co-founding Image, to your current home with DC. Out of all the various comic worlds, what is it specifically about the DC Universe that lends itself so well to an MMORPG and, to sum it up, why are you so excited to show gamers the DC Universe?
Jim Lee : Wow. Well I think there are several things that make the DC Universe unique. I don't know if that makes for a better MMO experience per se. Obviously, the fact that it has an incredible 60 year history of continuity, incredible characters and stories definitely gives it enough depth so that it feels like a universe. You know? It's not made up by two people over the course of a year. There's more stuff than we could possibly fit into an MMO. So that the really great thing about the DC Universe is, I think, at its core it's a very optimistic universe. It's a very positive universe and I think from that standpoint it's very clear if you're a hero or a villain, what kind of conflicts you're going to have. There's something really cool about being a villain and fighting a comic hero like Super Man who really is an embodiment of all good -- and vice versa being a hero and fighting someone like Lex Luther.
Another real cool thing about the DC Universe is that it also has so many fictional cities and each of the cities that we've built so far are like characters in the game so you're really going to get some unique gameplay. It's not like you’re just going to be in New York or Los Angeles running around, blasting people. You're going to be in these iconic, super well known locations that are unique and only exist within the DC Universe.
Tamat : Alright. Since you're a gamer what are some of your favorite games, both online and offline? Also, how do you feel your tastes and gaming experiences have helped you design DCUO?
Jim Lee : As far as MMOs, I'm a huge fan of EverQuest, EverQuest II and World of Warcraft. I bought Age of Conan but I haven't loaded that up yet. I've also heard Warhammer is pretty good. I think it's just a matter of finding the time. The one thing that I've found about all the cool things I'm interested in, movies, comics, and video games; there's just not enough time in the day to experience all of those cool things. That said, I was way into Call of Duty 4 last year. I love that game! Just the immersion and realism, was intense. It definitely made me never want to enter armed combat in my lifetime. You know?
I like the MMO experience because I like playing against other people and, to me, it really mirrors a lot of the competition that you have in real life in terms of like, who's got the nicest car, who has the nicest duds, who's more powerful. It's just part of an MMO to group with other people and go on an adventure. It really does feel like you're experiencing something new and entering a fantasy world. So I think when you play DC Universe Online, you're really going to be able to nurture and fill that power fantasy of being a super hero or super villain.
Togikagi : You've been speaking a little bit about design with the cities and what not. I know you want to make sure that the cities in the game have their own atmosphere. I was wondering if you could go into a little more detail about how large these cities will be. I know Gotham’s huge, but what will it be like traveling in it within the game? Are there any hints you can give us on some other areas that we might see besides Metropolis, Gotham City and the Bat cave?
Jim Lee : Right. Both cities are not yet finished at this point. But Metropolis is very well along and it's gigantic. It will definitely feel like a Metropolis. From day one, when we sat down, Jared Carr, Mat Broome and the Wild Storm content team really tried to identify all the distinct aspects of both Metropolis and Gotham and how they differ from one another. In terms of architecture, you have Gotham which is more Gothic and broken -- and then you have Metropolis which is more art deco and modern. We’re even trying to do more flat top buildings like you would see in Chicago for Metropolis and more steeples and towers like you would see in Gotham like you would in New York. Even talking about changing the day and night cycles in the cities so there is more nighttime in Gotham, these are the kind of things we discussed. Now whether or not all of this will make it in the final release, I can't say at this point. We really wanted to go out of our way to say, "Look, if you're on a street corner in a city and you look down a street, you should be able to tell from looking down that street what city you're in". There are a lot of things you can do to reinforce that, and that is very important to us from day one.
Tamat : The DC Universe has been around for more than half a century now. How are you and your team whittling down what to focus on for the launch? Will you be focusing only on a specific continuity or time period when it comes to the game's design? Also, how are you balancing references for hardcore comics fans with keeping it accessible for new players?
Jim Lee : Wow, that's a gigantic three part question!
Tamat : Sorry!
Jim Lee : Well let me just say, in terms of the continuity, we’re really shooting for the ideal, platonic version of the DC Universe at launch. We’re not going to tie into the comic book per se right away, at the beginning. So Bruce Wayne is not Batman in the Comics, in the game he is. So 99% of the fans agree, 'that is the core of the DC Universe', or, 'that is what the DC Universe is all about' that's what we're going to have at launch. That said, as the game evolves, there is going to be an opportunity for us to tie into the DC continuity. So, if there is a Thanagarian invasion, and we know about it in advance, there is some cool stuff we can do where we have the event unfold in the comics and in the game at the same time. It’s going to involve a lot of coordination between people working on the game and, obviously, DC editorial. Luckily I have a job where I work at DC so I'm always in the loop on a bunch of different things, so we've already discussed a lot of different ways the game and the comic can work together. There's already a lot of synergy in terms of how we’re creating things for the game that will actually show up in the comics and vice versa, in terms of headquarters design, new character design, things like that. As far as what's going to be in the game at launch, it's more of a question of what were not going to put in. The list is huge in terms of characters that we have, secondary characters and even tertiary characters. We’re putting a lot of the DC Universe in mind and it will be a really cool treat for those casual comic book fans that have never seen a lot of these characters before, because of their limited exposure.
In terms of how we’re going to keep interesting the hardcore comic fan, I think that being able to see the secondary and tertiary type characters, maybe even some being able to get involved in things like the origin of say "The Metal Men", is something that a die hard comic book fan cannot pass up. There are so many characters that haven't been represented virtually or in the video game format that are going to be in DCUO. I believe that it's going to be an awesome experience if you’re a huge comic fan, and even if you're not a huge fan, you'll know some of these characters from the movies, TV and other shows. People are going to be dazzled by Metropolis and Gotham, with the wide variety of characters that you can encounter. I think it has something for everyone along the whole spectrum of casual to hardcore comic book fans, as well as the casual to hardcore gamer.
Togikagi : That sounds great! I love how you're talking about tying in what’s happening with the comics to that game. It makes it larger than an MMO when you think about it.
Jim Lee : Yeah! Because I worked at DC I was already into MMOs and I think the type of game lends itself to that kind of synergy. Actually the amount of lead time needed to prepare for big summer crossover type events between the DC Universe and print and to go back and hook things in game, take roughly around the same amount of time. There’re definitely opportunities to do that but in terms of trying to nail a certain point of DC continuity at launch, would be impossible to do. Instead we decided that it makes more sense to present the DC Universe that everyone knows and loves, and then maybe deviate from that as we evolve.
Togikagi : Something else we're all excited about is the prospect of creating our own characters to fight with or against Superman, Batman, etc. I know it's still early, but do you have any information you can share on character customization? How detailed can costumes be, things like that?
Jim Lee : We'll, we're just doing stuff like that now, so you're going to see that shortly. That's a huge part of the game, the experience of creating a Super Hero, creating a look that is unique and individual is super important to maintaining that feeling of immersion. At the same time we really wanted to create costumes that felt like they could exist in the DC Universe and print. So, we definitely wanted to have a hand in the art direction as far as what costumes you can create. Right now, the first sixteen example costumes have a huge variety and they all look super badass. I think we'll have a real nice blend between things that looked like they stepped out of a fantasy game or a sci fi game; then other costumes looks more traditionally heroic. I think that's what most people are seeing in the comics. It's not just about having a logo on your chest, cape and underwear. Most modern costumes today look more Matrix inspired or from X-Men the movie. We're giving you the option of doing either or, you know, that whole spectrum. This will allow each of those kinds of characters, whether you go the more old fashion route or something more modern, to have them both look really kick ass. I think that having your costume being recognizably your character’s, while keeping room to upgrade it, in terms of improving some of features like specularity or adding a little more detail or a little more armor under the shoulders, that kind of stuff, so that when people see you they will recognize your character even though you look cooler now. It's a big part of the game, and there are going to be a ton of choices. An overwhelming amount of choices which I think is really cool.
Togikagi : Sounds great!
Tamat : It sounds like there might be more spandex at the Fan Faire preceding the launch of DCUO.
Jim Lee : Yeah.
Togikagi : *laughs*
Tamat : How will superpowers be balanced in both PvP and PvE? For example, what's keeping a player from creating a Superman-like character that’s impervious to almost everything?
Jim Lee : Well, even Superman has his weaknesses and even in comics we always grapple with the world’s most powerful characters. I don't think your going to be able to create a character that's impervious to everything. You're going to have a variety of powers but there’re definitely gameplay, balance issues that we're going to have to discover and hammer out in testing. The thing about creating different sets of powers is to keep it fun and exciting for the players. Balancing powers is extremely important and we've put a lot of thought into that.
Togikagi : That actually leads into my excitement about the PvP aspect of the game. In many ways, the PvP portion sounds a lot like it's more of an action game. I know we'll be able to interact with the environment by picking up cars, etc. Will we also be able to damage the environment? Will we be able to damage buildings? Will there be pedestrians on the street watching the fights? How is that going to work?
Jim Lee : I know that the intent was to have a lot of pedestrians and have them actually react to what they're seeing, by their expressions and their movement patterns. They're not all going to flock towards the action; they’re going to run away. In terms of the cities there will be damage states to walls; when you throw an object up against a wall you'll see damage to the structure and, over time, it will repair itself. We don't want cities that are always completely destroyed. But there will be a nice satisfying feeling when you throw a player or a car against a skyscraper and see the windows break or the bricks smash. The PvP, like you said, will have a very console aspect, core to what we want the game to be. We want it to be fast paced and really have an arcade like feel to it so that it's not just a static game. It shouldn't be because we're not fighting on a 2D battlefield, it's going to be 3D all the way. You'll have these cities with skyscrapers and rooftops and you'll have characters that can run up the side of buildings and characters that can fly, people hitting each other with beams and all sorts of projectile weapons. To me, it feels a bit like a dog fight, each time you jump into a battle. You have to continuously look over your shoulder. It’s a very intense kind of experience; which it should be, because Super Heroes, to me, are the ultimate fighters and these are near God-like type characters and it's not about wielding a magic sword or casting a spell. These are characters that would be revered as Gods in ancient times, and they would be seen as odysseys created by radiation or alien beings or whatever. It's also a challenge for the game because it’s not just swords and sorcery. You have to have powers and then characters like Batman that don't have powers and you have to make sure they can hold their own against these other characters with super powers.
Tamat : How will in-game socialization work? Obviously creating a superhero league or guild will be fun, but what other ways will be available for players to interact with one another as enemies or allies?
Jim Lee : Well I can't speak of that as directly as I would like, but you'll definitely have all the tools you need to form those kinds of leagues and societies. Ultimately, we want to reduce the grind time as much as possible and really allow players to find other people to group with immediately so they can get to it. We want to reduce the amount of time spent looking for group, looking for a league and something to do. We really want this to be a game where you can log in and immediately start doing stuff.
Tamat : Is there more of a focus on solo play, group play, or both?
Jim Lee : Well I think ideally, you would have both so that you can jump on and have fifteen minutes of fun or group with your buddies and do a much larger mission. I know the goal is to really reduce the amount of grind time. If you're ready to do a mission, it will pair you up with other people and you'll be ready to roll. There won't be a lot of running to each other in order to group. We really want to maximize he amount of fun in game, and maximize the time you spent doing super heroic things, verses typical MMO grind.
Togikagi : In a similar vein how will "leveling up" and character progression work? How do Super Heroes become ever more ... super?
Jim Lee : There will be a balance between leveling up and the innate game skill. We didn't want to make it so that the game would be void of skill or talent. So if you're good at arcade battle and using a controller, you're going to have an advantage over those who don’t. There will also be items in game that make players temporarily more powerful or more protected. That will allow players who've played for a longer amount of time to collect cooler items and expendables to use to make up for the fact that maybe they’re not as skilled. So there is a little bit of everything for everyone in the game and we didn't want it to be a game where it didn't matter if you had good timing or couldn't control your characters very well and I think that would take away from the arcade thrill or the feel of the game. So there will definitely be items in the game that make your characters more powerful temporarily and you'll need to play the game for a while to get a lot of these cool items to suit up your characters to take on certain missions. So there are going to be some cool things to acquire in the game but, at the same time, you're going to need to pay attention and fight your heart out every time.
Togikagi : In most MMOs you have Tanks, Healers, Damage Dealers, etc. How will the party dynamic work in DC Universe Online?
Jim Lee : It's probably too early to say at this point other than we want to make it possible for all sorts of groups to come together to do missions. We want to make it so that you don't have to have one of X, two of Y, one of Z, that kind of a thing. We're really trying to give a lot of flexibility. You'll have your power set but you'll have a lot of flexibility in term of the equipment that you can swap in and out, that will allow you to do different functions within the different groups. I don't think there are going to be classes per se, like most MMOs, where you have a healer or a damage dealer. I think people are going to have a lot of different abilities that they can maximize and minimize based on the equipment that they put on and the powers that they've chosen.
Tamat : Does the fact that the game will launch on both PS3 and PC have any effect on the design process, especially when it comes to controls and graphics?
Jim Lee : Yeah, I mean that's a technical issue obviously. I'm not as technically proficient on that level. I just know that we really want to make it possible for many people to play with one another.
Tamat : What about how it affects you? Does it affect your art at all?
Jim Lee : Well it definitely affects how it looks on the screen I would imagine, in terms of resolution. But, at the same time, a lot of the tests we've seen so far, in terms of optimization for the PS3, look great -- the renders that I've seen look really terrific and the PS3 is a very powerful machine. I think that the colors and the detail look super vibrant at this point. I think in terms of how games look on your screen, MMOs tend to be a little behind your typical single player game. That said, the stuff that I've seen so far looks really terrific. We have a lot of really cool silhouettes for all the different heroes and villains. Also, the character customization in the game is going to allow you to enhance that. So you're going to have some really amazing armor sets or costume sets, capes and weapons that you can hold. The color palette is intense. It looks really sharp.
Togikagi : Will there be a big difference in storylines between players choosing to be a hero or a villain?
Jim Lee : Yeah for sure, this is where Geoff Johns has been instrumental in the design of the story arcs. There are story arcs for both Heroes and Villains that are unique but at times sort of cross over and interplay off each other. But yeah you're going to have a very different game experience if you create one Heroes versus a Villain and actually when you go the Heroic route there’re a couple of different options you can pursue that will give you different missions and interactions with the characters and overall a different game experience. So there is going to be a lot of replayability and if, at some point, you say "I really just need something new and different", you don't have to just roll another power set; there are all these others different things you can do in terms of being a hero versus villain, then also, what cities you start in, etc, etc. Chris Cao and Jens Andersen work with Geoff Johns to really create as much diversity in the different story arcs as possible.
Tamat : How often will we be able to interact with the big name characters, like Superman, Batman and Green Lantern? Will it happen often or be more for the bigger, epic missions?
Jim Lee : We want there to be as much interaction as possible so you don't have to wait until you've maxed out your levels to interact with Super Man. We want you to be able to experience the DC Universe as soon and as intensely as possible. So, depending on the story arc that drives you character, you'll be interacting with iconics fairly quickly and fairly often. That is an important part of the DC Universe experience. It could even just be something like getting a message from Super Man saying "Hey I need help, can you go investigate this situation?"
Togikagi : So it sounds like we're going to get a lot of screen time with the big names.
Jim Lee : Yeah.
Togikagi : How has your artistic style changed as you've focused on the MMORPG medium? Or, to summarize it differently, what are the similarities and differences between creating a comic book and designing a video game?
Jim Lee : You know it's interesting. As we were creating the first path of the player character costumes I was with a very talented artist named Mike Pedro at SOE in Austin. He came up with some amazing designs that look like they were more from the world of video games and he started seeing some of the differences and we’re going to have that because we want to have as broad a spectrum as possible.
But I really started thinking about Super Hero costumes that make them unique to comics; that’s something that I had never really thought about before, and certainly while drawing these silhouettes I started questioning my own proportions. When I draw them, I draw them to fit the space, I draw them to fit the mood and that could mean that their face looks wider, or more intense, or longer and even beefier depending on the emotion that you want to create with that drawing and then the 3D space obviously needs to be consistent. I started realizing that I definitely draw different profiles of the face in terms of the nose and things like that. So it's been an eye opening experience to see a drawing develop 3D and then recognizing that if I had to draw a face with a nose of this length from the front, this is what it would look like from the side. I've thought, "Wow, it's a good thing I don't have to do that" -- it's been really cool to see that. A lot of the stuff that I've been dealing with has been more from the standpoint of design. Things you do second hand without even thinking about it. So when I sit down and start drawing Gotham, I don't start thinking about how Gotham is different from Metropolis; I just start drawing what I know to be true. Breaking it down and making a list of why certain things make it feel more like Gotham isn't something I've ever really had to think about. So you have to really dissect your style, going over it and breaking it down even with things as simple as how to draw eyes. I’d never really thought about how I do it differently than others but then there was something where I sort of had to train the 3D modelers and impart that style guide onto their sensibilities. It's been a cool experience; it's almost like your taking your own drawing class and having to listen to yourself about your own style because you've never really thought about it that way.
Tamat : What type of character do you plan on making?
Jim Lee : Wow. Well I almost always end up creating a Paladin, or good characters, that's sort of my character of choice. But for this one I'm going to go a little different and I'm going to go the Villain route. That way I can be as evil and as malicious as possible while PvPing and I'll feel good about myself. I definitely think that Speedster is one that, as soon as they put that in game and I tried it out, I was like "oh this is just so amazing". It makes it so you can traverse and experience the game environment. I've ridden horses and flown through cities, but who can say that they've run up and down skyscrapers? Running through the city, running up the sides of buildings and across rooftops and jumping to other rooftops is just something that fulfills a very cool power fantasy for a lot of people. So I'm definitely going to pick that as my power movement type. But I'm leaning toward villain, especially for PvP. A lot of times villains tend to get less love and attention and I want to make sure that they do in DCUO.
Togikagi : Yeah! Villains are people too!
Jim Lee : Yeah exactly.
Togikagi : Lastly, any word on a tentative date for the start of alpha testing, beta testing or a release date?
Jim Lee : There’s nothing that I could put out there. Right now we just want to produce the best game possible and that's going to take the required amount of time. Once you start giving dates, you create expectations. If you're late, it's really bad for the game. So right now we want to talk about how cool the game is turning out and then when we're closer to announcing dates, we'll do that. We want to just ship the game when it's ready and check out all the cool stuff we've done so far.
Togikagi : Alright. On behalf of the both of us I really want to say how much we appreciate you meeting with us. It's been a real pleasure.
Jim Lee : Well thank you guys!
This interview with Jim Lee includes questions asked by Darryl "Togikagi" Gangloff.
Sony Online Entertainment's, DC Universe Online (DCUO) is one of the most anticipated MMOs in development, due to both the intellectual property and the big names behind the title. Jim Lee is one of those names that has comic book fans quivering with anticipation. Recently, Togikagi and I had the opportunity to chat with Jim in person about DCUO. Special thanks go out to Jim for chatting with us when he was a tad under the weather.
Tamat : Hey Jim, I can’t tell you how much we appreciate you taking the time to talk with us about DC Universe Online; not to mention the fact that you’ve taken the time to do so while you have the flu!
Jim Lee : Hey no problem, it’s my pleasure!
Togikagi : I just want to say that I’m a huge fan. My father owned a comic book store when I was growing up so this is a sincere honor.
Jim Lee : Awesome! I appreciate that.
Togikagi : You've worked on numerous comic books throughout the years, from your run at Marvel, to co-founding Image, to your current home with DC. Out of all the various comic worlds, what is it specifically about the DC Universe that lends itself so well to an MMORPG and, to sum it up, why are you so excited to show gamers the DC Universe?
Jim Lee : Wow. Well I think there are several things that make the DC Universe unique. I don't know if that makes for a better MMO experience per se. Obviously, the fact that it has an incredible 60 year history of continuity, incredible characters and stories definitely gives it enough depth so that it feels like a universe. You know? It's not made up by two people over the course of a year. There's more stuff than we could possibly fit into an MMO. So that the really great thing about the DC Universe is, I think, at its core it's a very optimistic universe. It's a very positive universe and I think from that standpoint it's very clear if you're a hero or a villain, what kind of conflicts you're going to have. There's something really cool about being a villain and fighting a comic hero like Super Man who really is an embodiment of all good -- and vice versa being a hero and fighting someone like Lex Luther.
Another real cool thing about the DC Universe is that it also has so many fictional cities and each of the cities that we've built so far are like characters in the game so you're really going to get some unique gameplay. It's not like you’re just going to be in New York or Los Angeles running around, blasting people. You're going to be in these iconic, super well known locations that are unique and only exist within the DC Universe.
Tamat : Alright. Since you're a gamer what are some of your favorite games, both online and offline? Also, how do you feel your tastes and gaming experiences have helped you design DCUO?
Jim Lee : As far as MMOs, I'm a huge fan of EverQuest, EverQuest II and World of Warcraft. I bought Age of Conan but I haven't loaded that up yet. I've also heard Warhammer is pretty good. I think it's just a matter of finding the time. The one thing that I've found about all the cool things I'm interested in, movies, comics, and video games; there's just not enough time in the day to experience all of those cool things. That said, I was way into Call of Duty 4 last year. I love that game! Just the immersion and realism, was intense. It definitely made me never want to enter armed combat in my lifetime. You know?
I like the MMO experience because I like playing against other people and, to me, it really mirrors a lot of the competition that you have in real life in terms of like, who's got the nicest car, who has the nicest duds, who's more powerful. It's just part of an MMO to group with other people and go on an adventure. It really does feel like you're experiencing something new and entering a fantasy world. So I think when you play DC Universe Online, you're really going to be able to nurture and fill that power fantasy of being a super hero or super villain.
Togikagi : You've been speaking a little bit about design with the cities and what not. I know you want to make sure that the cities in the game have their own atmosphere. I was wondering if you could go into a little more detail about how large these cities will be. I know Gotham’s huge, but what will it be like traveling in it within the game? Are there any hints you can give us on some other areas that we might see besides Metropolis, Gotham City and the Bat cave?
Jim Lee : Right. Both cities are not yet finished at this point. But Metropolis is very well along and it's gigantic. It will definitely feel like a Metropolis. From day one, when we sat down, Jared Carr, Mat Broome and the Wild Storm content team really tried to identify all the distinct aspects of both Metropolis and Gotham and how they differ from one another. In terms of architecture, you have Gotham which is more Gothic and broken -- and then you have Metropolis which is more art deco and modern. We’re even trying to do more flat top buildings like you would see in Chicago for Metropolis and more steeples and towers like you would see in Gotham like you would in New York. Even talking about changing the day and night cycles in the cities so there is more nighttime in Gotham, these are the kind of things we discussed. Now whether or not all of this will make it in the final release, I can't say at this point. We really wanted to go out of our way to say, "Look, if you're on a street corner in a city and you look down a street, you should be able to tell from looking down that street what city you're in". There are a lot of things you can do to reinforce that, and that is very important to us from day one.
Tamat : The DC Universe has been around for more than half a century now. How are you and your team whittling down what to focus on for the launch? Will you be focusing only on a specific continuity or time period when it comes to the game's design? Also, how are you balancing references for hardcore comics fans with keeping it accessible for new players?
Jim Lee : Wow, that's a gigantic three part question!
Tamat : Sorry!
Jim Lee : Well let me just say, in terms of the continuity, we’re really shooting for the ideal, platonic version of the DC Universe at launch. We’re not going to tie into the comic book per se right away, at the beginning. So Bruce Wayne is not Batman in the Comics, in the game he is. So 99% of the fans agree, 'that is the core of the DC Universe', or, 'that is what the DC Universe is all about' that's what we're going to have at launch. That said, as the game evolves, there is going to be an opportunity for us to tie into the DC continuity. So, if there is a Thanagarian invasion, and we know about it in advance, there is some cool stuff we can do where we have the event unfold in the comics and in the game at the same time. It’s going to involve a lot of coordination between people working on the game and, obviously, DC editorial. Luckily I have a job where I work at DC so I'm always in the loop on a bunch of different things, so we've already discussed a lot of different ways the game and the comic can work together. There's already a lot of synergy in terms of how we’re creating things for the game that will actually show up in the comics and vice versa, in terms of headquarters design, new character design, things like that. As far as what's going to be in the game at launch, it's more of a question of what were not going to put in. The list is huge in terms of characters that we have, secondary characters and even tertiary characters. We’re putting a lot of the DC Universe in mind and it will be a really cool treat for those casual comic book fans that have never seen a lot of these characters before, because of their limited exposure.
In terms of how we’re going to keep interesting the hardcore comic fan, I think that being able to see the secondary and tertiary type characters, maybe even some being able to get involved in things like the origin of say "The Metal Men", is something that a die hard comic book fan cannot pass up. There are so many characters that haven't been represented virtually or in the video game format that are going to be in DCUO. I believe that it's going to be an awesome experience if you’re a huge comic fan, and even if you're not a huge fan, you'll know some of these characters from the movies, TV and other shows. People are going to be dazzled by Metropolis and Gotham, with the wide variety of characters that you can encounter. I think it has something for everyone along the whole spectrum of casual to hardcore comic book fans, as well as the casual to hardcore gamer.
Togikagi : That sounds great! I love how you're talking about tying in what’s happening with the comics to that game. It makes it larger than an MMO when you think about it.
Jim Lee : Yeah! Because I worked at DC I was already into MMOs and I think the type of game lends itself to that kind of synergy. Actually the amount of lead time needed to prepare for big summer crossover type events between the DC Universe and print and to go back and hook things in game, take roughly around the same amount of time. There’re definitely opportunities to do that but in terms of trying to nail a certain point of DC continuity at launch, would be impossible to do. Instead we decided that it makes more sense to present the DC Universe that everyone knows and loves, and then maybe deviate from that as we evolve.
Togikagi : Something else we're all excited about is the prospect of creating our own characters to fight with or against Superman, Batman, etc. I know it's still early, but do you have any information you can share on character customization? How detailed can costumes be, things like that?
Jim Lee : We'll, we're just doing stuff like that now, so you're going to see that shortly. That's a huge part of the game, the experience of creating a Super Hero, creating a look that is unique and individual is super important to maintaining that feeling of immersion. At the same time we really wanted to create costumes that felt like they could exist in the DC Universe and print. So, we definitely wanted to have a hand in the art direction as far as what costumes you can create. Right now, the first sixteen example costumes have a huge variety and they all look super badass. I think we'll have a real nice blend between things that looked like they stepped out of a fantasy game or a sci fi game; then other costumes looks more traditionally heroic. I think that's what most people are seeing in the comics. It's not just about having a logo on your chest, cape and underwear. Most modern costumes today look more Matrix inspired or from X-Men the movie. We're giving you the option of doing either or, you know, that whole spectrum. This will allow each of those kinds of characters, whether you go the more old fashion route or something more modern, to have them both look really kick ass. I think that having your costume being recognizably your character’s, while keeping room to upgrade it, in terms of improving some of features like specularity or adding a little more detail or a little more armor under the shoulders, that kind of stuff, so that when people see you they will recognize your character even though you look cooler now. It's a big part of the game, and there are going to be a ton of choices. An overwhelming amount of choices which I think is really cool.
Togikagi : Sounds great!
Tamat : It sounds like there might be more spandex at the Fan Faire preceding the launch of DCUO.
Jim Lee : Yeah.
Togikagi : *laughs*
Tamat : How will superpowers be balanced in both PvP and PvE? For example, what's keeping a player from creating a Superman-like character that’s impervious to almost everything?
Jim Lee : Well, even Superman has his weaknesses and even in comics we always grapple with the world’s most powerful characters. I don't think your going to be able to create a character that's impervious to everything. You're going to have a variety of powers but there’re definitely gameplay, balance issues that we're going to have to discover and hammer out in testing. The thing about creating different sets of powers is to keep it fun and exciting for the players. Balancing powers is extremely important and we've put a lot of thought into that.
Togikagi : That actually leads into my excitement about the PvP aspect of the game. In many ways, the PvP portion sounds a lot like it's more of an action game. I know we'll be able to interact with the environment by picking up cars, etc. Will we also be able to damage the environment? Will we be able to damage buildings? Will there be pedestrians on the street watching the fights? How is that going to work?
Jim Lee : I know that the intent was to have a lot of pedestrians and have them actually react to what they're seeing, by their expressions and their movement patterns. They're not all going to flock towards the action; they’re going to run away. In terms of the cities there will be damage states to walls; when you throw an object up against a wall you'll see damage to the structure and, over time, it will repair itself. We don't want cities that are always completely destroyed. But there will be a nice satisfying feeling when you throw a player or a car against a skyscraper and see the windows break or the bricks smash. The PvP, like you said, will have a very console aspect, core to what we want the game to be. We want it to be fast paced and really have an arcade like feel to it so that it's not just a static game. It shouldn't be because we're not fighting on a 2D battlefield, it's going to be 3D all the way. You'll have these cities with skyscrapers and rooftops and you'll have characters that can run up the side of buildings and characters that can fly, people hitting each other with beams and all sorts of projectile weapons. To me, it feels a bit like a dog fight, each time you jump into a battle. You have to continuously look over your shoulder. It’s a very intense kind of experience; which it should be, because Super Heroes, to me, are the ultimate fighters and these are near God-like type characters and it's not about wielding a magic sword or casting a spell. These are characters that would be revered as Gods in ancient times, and they would be seen as odysseys created by radiation or alien beings or whatever. It's also a challenge for the game because it’s not just swords and sorcery. You have to have powers and then characters like Batman that don't have powers and you have to make sure they can hold their own against these other characters with super powers.
Tamat : How will in-game socialization work? Obviously creating a superhero league or guild will be fun, but what other ways will be available for players to interact with one another as enemies or allies?
Jim Lee : Well I can't speak of that as directly as I would like, but you'll definitely have all the tools you need to form those kinds of leagues and societies. Ultimately, we want to reduce the grind time as much as possible and really allow players to find other people to group with immediately so they can get to it. We want to reduce the amount of time spent looking for group, looking for a league and something to do. We really want this to be a game where you can log in and immediately start doing stuff.
Tamat : Is there more of a focus on solo play, group play, or both?
Jim Lee : Well I think ideally, you would have both so that you can jump on and have fifteen minutes of fun or group with your buddies and do a much larger mission. I know the goal is to really reduce the amount of grind time. If you're ready to do a mission, it will pair you up with other people and you'll be ready to roll. There won't be a lot of running to each other in order to group. We really want to maximize he amount of fun in game, and maximize the time you spent doing super heroic things, verses typical MMO grind.
Togikagi : In a similar vein how will "leveling up" and character progression work? How do Super Heroes become ever more ... super?
Jim Lee : There will be a balance between leveling up and the innate game skill. We didn't want to make it so that the game would be void of skill or talent. So if you're good at arcade battle and using a controller, you're going to have an advantage over those who don’t. There will also be items in game that make players temporarily more powerful or more protected. That will allow players who've played for a longer amount of time to collect cooler items and expendables to use to make up for the fact that maybe they’re not as skilled. So there is a little bit of everything for everyone in the game and we didn't want it to be a game where it didn't matter if you had good timing or couldn't control your characters very well and I think that would take away from the arcade thrill or the feel of the game. So there will definitely be items in the game that make your characters more powerful temporarily and you'll need to play the game for a while to get a lot of these cool items to suit up your characters to take on certain missions. So there are going to be some cool things to acquire in the game but, at the same time, you're going to need to pay attention and fight your heart out every time.
Togikagi : In most MMOs you have Tanks, Healers, Damage Dealers, etc. How will the party dynamic work in DC Universe Online?
Jim Lee : It's probably too early to say at this point other than we want to make it possible for all sorts of groups to come together to do missions. We want to make it so that you don't have to have one of X, two of Y, one of Z, that kind of a thing. We're really trying to give a lot of flexibility. You'll have your power set but you'll have a lot of flexibility in term of the equipment that you can swap in and out, that will allow you to do different functions within the different groups. I don't think there are going to be classes per se, like most MMOs, where you have a healer or a damage dealer. I think people are going to have a lot of different abilities that they can maximize and minimize based on the equipment that they put on and the powers that they've chosen.
Tamat : Does the fact that the game will launch on both PS3 and PC have any effect on the design process, especially when it comes to controls and graphics?
Jim Lee : Yeah, I mean that's a technical issue obviously. I'm not as technically proficient on that level. I just know that we really want to make it possible for many people to play with one another.
Tamat : What about how it affects you? Does it affect your art at all?
Jim Lee : Well it definitely affects how it looks on the screen I would imagine, in terms of resolution. But, at the same time, a lot of the tests we've seen so far, in terms of optimization for the PS3, look great -- the renders that I've seen look really terrific and the PS3 is a very powerful machine. I think that the colors and the detail look super vibrant at this point. I think in terms of how games look on your screen, MMOs tend to be a little behind your typical single player game. That said, the stuff that I've seen so far looks really terrific. We have a lot of really cool silhouettes for all the different heroes and villains. Also, the character customization in the game is going to allow you to enhance that. So you're going to have some really amazing armor sets or costume sets, capes and weapons that you can hold. The color palette is intense. It looks really sharp.
Togikagi : Will there be a big difference in storylines between players choosing to be a hero or a villain?
Jim Lee : Yeah for sure, this is where Geoff Johns has been instrumental in the design of the story arcs. There are story arcs for both Heroes and Villains that are unique but at times sort of cross over and interplay off each other. But yeah you're going to have a very different game experience if you create one Heroes versus a Villain and actually when you go the Heroic route there’re a couple of different options you can pursue that will give you different missions and interactions with the characters and overall a different game experience. So there is going to be a lot of replayability and if, at some point, you say "I really just need something new and different", you don't have to just roll another power set; there are all these others different things you can do in terms of being a hero versus villain, then also, what cities you start in, etc, etc. Chris Cao and Jens Andersen work with Geoff Johns to really create as much diversity in the different story arcs as possible.
Tamat : How often will we be able to interact with the big name characters, like Superman, Batman and Green Lantern? Will it happen often or be more for the bigger, epic missions?
Jim Lee : We want there to be as much interaction as possible so you don't have to wait until you've maxed out your levels to interact with Super Man. We want you to be able to experience the DC Universe as soon and as intensely as possible. So, depending on the story arc that drives you character, you'll be interacting with iconics fairly quickly and fairly often. That is an important part of the DC Universe experience. It could even just be something like getting a message from Super Man saying "Hey I need help, can you go investigate this situation?"
Togikagi : So it sounds like we're going to get a lot of screen time with the big names.
Jim Lee : Yeah.
Togikagi : How has your artistic style changed as you've focused on the MMORPG medium? Or, to summarize it differently, what are the similarities and differences between creating a comic book and designing a video game?
Jim Lee : You know it's interesting. As we were creating the first path of the player character costumes I was with a very talented artist named Mike Pedro at SOE in Austin. He came up with some amazing designs that look like they were more from the world of video games and he started seeing some of the differences and we’re going to have that because we want to have as broad a spectrum as possible.
But I really started thinking about Super Hero costumes that make them unique to comics; that’s something that I had never really thought about before, and certainly while drawing these silhouettes I started questioning my own proportions. When I draw them, I draw them to fit the space, I draw them to fit the mood and that could mean that their face looks wider, or more intense, or longer and even beefier depending on the emotion that you want to create with that drawing and then the 3D space obviously needs to be consistent. I started realizing that I definitely draw different profiles of the face in terms of the nose and things like that. So it's been an eye opening experience to see a drawing develop 3D and then recognizing that if I had to draw a face with a nose of this length from the front, this is what it would look like from the side. I've thought, "Wow, it's a good thing I don't have to do that" -- it's been really cool to see that. A lot of the stuff that I've been dealing with has been more from the standpoint of design. Things you do second hand without even thinking about it. So when I sit down and start drawing Gotham, I don't start thinking about how Gotham is different from Metropolis; I just start drawing what I know to be true. Breaking it down and making a list of why certain things make it feel more like Gotham isn't something I've ever really had to think about. So you have to really dissect your style, going over it and breaking it down even with things as simple as how to draw eyes. I’d never really thought about how I do it differently than others but then there was something where I sort of had to train the 3D modelers and impart that style guide onto their sensibilities. It's been a cool experience; it's almost like your taking your own drawing class and having to listen to yourself about your own style because you've never really thought about it that way.
Tamat : What type of character do you plan on making?
Jim Lee : Wow. Well I almost always end up creating a Paladin, or good characters, that's sort of my character of choice. But for this one I'm going to go a little different and I'm going to go the Villain route. That way I can be as evil and as malicious as possible while PvPing and I'll feel good about myself. I definitely think that Speedster is one that, as soon as they put that in game and I tried it out, I was like "oh this is just so amazing". It makes it so you can traverse and experience the game environment. I've ridden horses and flown through cities, but who can say that they've run up and down skyscrapers? Running through the city, running up the sides of buildings and across rooftops and jumping to other rooftops is just something that fulfills a very cool power fantasy for a lot of people. So I'm definitely going to pick that as my power movement type. But I'm leaning toward villain, especially for PvP. A lot of times villains tend to get less love and attention and I want to make sure that they do in DCUO.
Togikagi : Yeah! Villains are people too!
Jim Lee : Yeah exactly.
Togikagi : Lastly, any word on a tentative date for the start of alpha testing, beta testing or a release date?
Jim Lee : There’s nothing that I could put out there. Right now we just want to produce the best game possible and that's going to take the required amount of time. Once you start giving dates, you create expectations. If you're late, it's really bad for the game. So right now we want to talk about how cool the game is turning out and then when we're closer to announcing dates, we'll do that. We want to just ship the game when it's ready and check out all the cool stuff we've done so far.
Togikagi : Alright. On behalf of the both of us I really want to say how much we appreciate you meeting with us. It's been a real pleasure.
Jim Lee : Well thank you guys!